The Cookout

Lamont · 1/19/22

Czharcus said:
You raise some really good points. There is no way I can answer to your satisfaction. If you do not believe in God, there is no way anyone can convince you because it is your will that he does not exist. Therefore, to you, he never will.

Who said I didn't believe in God? I didn't say that at all.

Czharcus said:
But what logic? How do you know you are even using the logic to which the spiritual realm must adhere?

Because logic is apart of the universe in which the spiritual realm exists. Why would it create something that is not needed. Logic is created for a purpose as it helps us understand our surroundings. Why would the universe create logic and only ask for it to be applied in a very myopic set of events. It makes sense that logic should be applied across the board and be leveraged to make things make sense. For instance, ghost do not make logical sense under the current human understanding of physics. BUT with the Grand Architect would be able to explain to a human in clear logical terms why a ghost is actually possible and make it makes sense. Absence of information does not mean that logic is not longer sound. Christians like to take absence of information and use that to justify God.

TAILIANNA · 1/19/22

Czharcus said:
Well, Santa is an idea within God so…

Santa is actually a pegan thing

Czharcus said:
Paganism is also an idea within God, like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam…

It isn't that if you don't believe in him, he has no power as much as it is you just don't it attribute anything that is, to him. (Again, I want to stress that God is formless so these pronouns that I'm using are just placeholders).

But in a way, you are correct. The law is (for the sake of this analogy) you get presents on Christmas day. It is your choice whether to believe Santa brought them or your parents did. Either doesn't actually change the law.

Whether you believe God exists or not doesn't change the fact that you exist (the law). So either way, you are still affected by his power. I think an important point to take into consideration is God is his creation, not a man that created something and went somewhere else, but rather God is everything there is.

ya thats all i was saying is that you need to believe to se. What will generally happen is people will belive so hard they will wrap themselves so much into this book that they will belive their inner thoughts are actually god. And this seems dangerous because what if this voice tells you to kill your child like it did abraham or invade and burn down mexico like it did moses. The real world is full of these stories about people drove crazy and most are in prison over this idea. I believe the bible should be looked at as any other philosophical book and that whatever good you find in it is free game. But to lock your morality and understanding to what men wrote 1000 years ago and call it a holy doctin. I think we need to throw that away asap.

Deleted member 191 · 1/19/22

TheHarmattan said:
But you have lived your whole life on suppositions that you, yourself, cannot verify or validate.
The fact that you are alive is evident, but did you look at the clock as you came out and said, It's 3:15 pm, Eastern Standard time on October 17? You rely on your mother's testimony. You rely on the doctor's testimony.
I will NOT be disrespectful so I will ASK a question and not accuse your dear mother. Has she ever told a lied? Has the doctor ever lied? In theory they could have lied IF your answer to the question was yes.

My mother's understanding of life was the truth is only valid if it doesn't make you look bad and if it does make you look bad then lie. So to answer your question, yes mom was a big ass liar. Half the time she couldn't function when she wasn't fuckin lyin'. So IF she lied it would be on brand for her.

TheHarmattan said:
You were present at your own birth but you cannot tell me FOR SURE of what your own birthday is.

This is true, but a legal document called a birth certificate stating my existence occurred, that is on record with the Government at the city, state and federal levels, proves this happened. So actually I CAN tell you for sure what my own birthday is. I can even tell you what TIME I was born.

TheHarmattan said:
Your education probably taught you about Ancient Rome. Was your teacher a witness? Was the author of the history book that you read, present when Julius was stabbed?

Didn't learn much about Ancient Rome. Aside from the little bit I researched on my own. But I learned about Slavery in America and my teacher wasn't a witness and neither was the author of the Social Studies book we used in school, but I dare you to say we can't know FOR SURE slavery even happened. Because we absolutely CAN know for sure. They're historical occurrences that shaped a society and ultimately an entire nation.

TAILIANNA · 1/19/22

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKt56ztXSK0

Jay · 1/19/22

TheHarmattan said:
The fact that you are alive is evident, but did you look at the clock as you came out and said, It's 3:15 pm, Eastern Standard time on October 17? You rely on your mother's testimony. You rely on the doctor's testimony. I will NOT be disrespectful so I will ASK a question and not accuse your dear mother. Has she ever told a lied? Has the doctor ever lied? In theory they could have lied IF your answer to the question was yes.

How is this the same as questioning the Bible? One may not have been able to read the time on their day of birth but the fact they are alive is proof that they were born.

TheHarmattan said:
Your education probably taught you about Ancient Rome. Was your teacher a witness? Was the author of the history book that you read, present when Julius was stabbed?

No, but there are multiple sources, primary and secondary that confirm certain events. For instance:

Herodotus said the Kemetic people were Black
Stabo said the Kemetic people were Black
Diodorus said the Kemetic people were Black

When you see multiple different primary sources saying these people were Black it's easy to believe even though time machines didn't exist. All the Bible has to say it is true is the Bible clearly there's a conflict of interest there.

TheHarmattan said:
Everyone is looking for facts in a religion but cannot see the facts that are right in front of their very own eyes.

We're looking for facts because this religion is saying "I am the one and only truth". If you are the one and only truth show and prove don't ask me to just "believe it". Then ask me to just "believe" but then within your own institution there isn't a consensus.

Czharcus · 1/19/22

Lamont said:
Who said I didn't believe in God? I didn't say that at all.

I didn't mean to assume. I meant nothing contentious by it.

Lamont said:
Because logic is apart of the universe in which the spiritual realm exists. Why would it create something that is not needed. Logic is created for a purpose as it helps us understand our surroundings. Why would the universe create logic and only ask for it to be applied in a very myopic set of events. It makes sense that logic should be applied across the board and be leveraged to make things make sense. For instance, ghost do not make logical sense under the current human understanding of physics. BUT with the Grand Architect would be able to explain to a human in clear logical terms why a ghost is actually possible and make it makes sense. Absence of information does not mean that logic is not longer sound. Christians like to take absence of information and use that to justify God.

I meant to ask what you allude to. You say ghosts do not make logical sense undercurrent human understanding. What logic is being used rather than logic is inapplicable.

Lamont said:
What you're proposing is how individuals fall for cults and all other types of deviant thinking. You are asking people to forgo their logic and then hope to experience a spiritual awakening which is nonsensical.

I was asking, How do you know you even have all the factors necessary to come to a logical conclusion? "Deviant" thinking could be truthful thinking as it just means different from the norm. To find God, I guess you do have to forgo your own logic (because it is incomplete) and question what you think you already know to be true. I suppose it is nonsensical to some, but if you want to know what is actually true, that is the price of admission. But of course, you have the free will to not want to know.

Bruh Man · 1/19/22

Niggas legit in here saying "Lord of the Rings is real" and then when people say "prove it" they say "just pray to Gandalf and he'll show you".

Czharcus · 1/19/22

TAILIANNA said:
Santa is actually a pegan thing

ya thats all i was saying is that you need to believe to se. What will generally happen is people will belive so hard they will wrap themselves so much into this book that they will belive their inner thoughts are actually god. And this seems dangerous because what if this voice tells you to kill your child like it did abraham or invade and burn down mexico like it did moses. The real world is full of these stories about people drove crazy and most are in prison over this idea. I believe the bible should be looked at as any other philosophical book and that whatever good you find in it is free game. But to lock your morality and understanding to what men wrote 1000 years ago and call it a holy doctin. I think we need to throw that away asap.

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I would argue it isn't the book that's the problem but rather people's misunderstandings of it being taught as the only true way to understand it.

I am willing to wager stories of Jesus actually tell us that we are God, but it's so counter to what we believe God should be, we reject the notion. Because we often think so little of ourselves, we take it as blasphemy to even hint at the idea that we could be God. But if we understood we were God, we'd understand everyone else is God too/us so there would never be any ill will towards one another.

At the same time, we would understand that we are God projected into a human form, which is imperfect, so insanity can and will happen. But again, we are God so who the fuck is really dying here cause it ain't us lol?

Czharcus · 1/19/22

Jay said:
Do you think you're smart enough to state what the grand architect can and cannot make understandable to us? There's a saying, if you're not able to break a concept down to where a 5 year old can understand it, it's because you don't understand it enough. A 5 year old can understand the concept of physics if you explain it well enough hence why Bill Nye was popular. Sp humans have this capability but not the creator of the universe? I posit that the "your mortal mind could not understand it" cliche is an excuse to cover up why Christianity doesn't make sense.

Can you explain an experience in a way that makes everyone on the planet experience it the exact same way you did? Can you make everybody feel the exact emotions you felt at the exact moment and intensity you felt them for the exact duration you felt them, with your words?

Can you write a book that explains the entirety of the infinite universe? Even if you could, would I even know what the fuck you talking about?

When were talking about explaining God, that's what were talking about. Explain everything there is to a 5-year-old: GO.

You're thinking of God as a concept. You can explain a concept, but God is not a concept.

Jay · 1/19/22

Czharcus said:
Can you explain an experience in a way that makes everyone on the planet experience it the exact same way you did? Can you make everybody feel the exact emotions you felt at the exact moment and intensity you felt them for the exact duration you felt them, with your words?

Have you heard of authors? That’s what the good ones are experts at doing. Writing in ways that help put the reader in the shoes of someone else.

Czharcus said:
Can you write a book that explains the entirety of the infinite universe? Even if you could, would I even know what the fuck you talking about?

Why would you ask me this? It makes ZERO sense. God could write that book and write it in a way that a 5 year old could understand. I can’t because I nor you understand the universe in its entirety.

Czharcus said:
When were talking about explaining God, that's what were talking about. Explain everything there is to a 5-year-old: GO.

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. I said, that if God wrote a book to explain the world he/she/it built it wouldn’t be written like Bible full of vagueness. You said the vagueness is due to human limitation and I said no, because God would be able to explain it so simple and concise that it would be within the realm of human understanding. You are saying that God is unable to explain the Universe to humans and I’m saying who the hell are you to say that?

Czharcus said:
You're thinking of God as a concept. You can explain a concept, but God is not a concept.

No I’m not. I’m looking at God as the creator of the universe. If this entity i ssmart enough to create the universe it can write a book that is not confusing. Somehow Sony can make an instruction manual for a VCR that is unambiguous but God can’t do the same. The VCR manual literally says:

If you want to play the movie, press the button that says play.
If you want to turn off the VCR press the red button on the top right.

But God can’t produce anything that specific? When he wants to tell us how to care for the earth he has to write a bunch of riddles and shit?

You are the one limiting God not me.

Czharcus · 1/19/22

Jay said:
Have you heard of authors? That’s what the good ones are experts at doing. Writing in ways that help put the reader in the shoes of someone else.

Does the greatest author succeed in the precise way that I propose? How could we even measure it? If we both read something that made us sad, are we both experiencing the same intensity of the same emotion or are we both just labeling what we feel: sad? This question cannot be answered because all of us are different. That's what God is, an experience unique to each of us that we have no way of transferring/translating outside of labels that cannot convey accurately what is actually being felt. It's all just approximation, just pointing to something that cannot be "touched".

Jay said:
Why would you ask me this? It makes ZERO sense. God could write that book and write it in a way that a 5 year old could understand. I can’t because I nor you understand the universe in its entirety.

I ask you this because those men were God projected into a few limited human forms just like you. If you can't do it, of course they can't either.

God is everything there is. You bring up an interesting question: if everything there is gathered itself into a single human form, could it write a book about itself? Could it even know itself? Because it is infinite.

Jay said:
Once again, this doesn’t make sense. I said, that if God wrote a book to explain the world he/she/it built it wouldn’t be written like Bible full of vagueness. You said the vagueness is due to human limitation and I said no, because God would be able to explain it so simple and concise that it would be within the realm of human understanding. You are saying that God is unable to explain the Universe to humans and I’m saying who the hell are you to say that?

God is limited in human form, he cannot write about infinity because in the human form, he doesn't know it. Why would he? Literally stop eternity to write an incomplete book that explains his existence to himself when he could figure it out himself because he already did since he's writing the book explaining what he is to himself. Could an infinite being that is infinite creation ever completely know itself?

Jay said:
But God can’t produce anything that specific? When he wants to tell us how to care for the earth he has to write a bunch of riddles and shit?

You are the one limiting God not me.

He doesn't have to write it because we already know. We are him, we just deny it.

My argument isn't that God can't do something because God can and is the only thing that can do everything that can be done. My argument is that projected in human forms, God is limited and that's likely for a reason. How could God express infinitely as one thing? If we all knew we were God, we'd all basically have the same experience. There would literally be nowhere to go, no one to meet and nothing to do. But if God limited itself and added a way of forgetting itself, infinite experience.

Uncle Geoff/P2B1 · 1/20/22

If you don't at LEAST have a PASSPORT with EGYPT stamped in it... If your only point of reference is the KJV or ANY OFFSHOOT... YOU ARE UNQUALIFIED TO SPEAK INTELLIGENTLY ABOUT YOUR GODS.

Jay · 1/20/22

Czharcus said:
Does the greatest author succeed in the precise way that I propose? How could we even measure it? If we both read something that made us sad, are we both experiencing the same intensity of the same emotion or are we both just labeling what we feel: sad? This question cannot be answered because all of us are different. That's what God is, an experience unique to each of us that we have no way of transferring/translating outside of labels that cannot convey accurately what is actually being felt. It's all just approximation, just pointing to something that cannot be "touched".

No one has to do something exactly as you propose. At the end of the day, we are able to communicate to one another to make people experience what we felt. Can we mimic every single input we received to make them have the same exact output, of course not. But when I watch Titanic and I see Leonardo's eyes when he was floating in the water I can feel the terror he felt knowing that he was taking his last couple breaths. To go further and say "Did you feel the ice cold water and the lungs contracting" is asinine and the tactic of one who doesn't have a point.

Czharcus said:
ask you this because those men were God projected into a few limited human forms just like you. If you can't do it, of course they can't either.

God is everything there is. You bring up an interesting question: if everything there is gathered itself into a single human form, could it write a book about itself? Could it even know itself? Because it is infinite.

I get your point but you're trying to look at my explanation through your view of the world and it is confusing you. Read what I write and interpret the words as is, don't try to translate them to your world view. 6ZEROS is a bunch of code running on a computer in a data center and your computer asks that Server to give you 6ZEROS content via your internet connection. The server sends the code to you and it is rendered in your internet browser.

The code I write could be very ambiguous or very specific. If I provide ambiguity the look and features of 6ZEROS could change depending on if the user is surfing the web with Firefox, Chrome, etc. That's why I don't provide ambiguity in the codes, if I want something to appear black I don't tell the browser to render black I put #000000 because that is the specific type of black I want you to see ***MESSAGE***. The hashtags in your signature are a special type of orange yellow...if I told your browser to render orange yellow it would render it one way and another browser would render it another way. To make sure it is clear I tell the browser to render #FFCC00 as it knows that FFCC00 references a specific type of orange yellow that is clearly defined.

If I want the browser to display a picture of the 6ZEROS logo and I say "Posit onto thee logos of ZEROS in succession for it is most pleasing when imposed on reds of bright" it will not know what the hell to render. Whose fault is that? Mine. I have to write:

img src="6zeros.png"

...to get it to show the 6ZEROS logo because that is language it understands. My perspective and will is met because I gave clear instructions to the browser. The God you are proselytizing is either not smart enough to understand this concept or not benevolent enough to want to make things specific so that there is no confusion.

Your God is sending us this:

"Posit onto thee logos of ZEROS in succession for it is most pleasing when imposed on reds of bright"

When it should be sending us this:

img src="6zeros.png"

...and then wonder why everything is messed up.

But that's why I don't believe in the Christian God because it doesn't make sense. It supposedly wrote a book full of nothing but:

"Posit onto thee logos of ZEROS in succession for it is most pleasing when imposed on reds of bright"

...and it's so confusing that even the people that believe it's the truth can't even agree on its meaning. THat's a huge fail.

Czharcus said:
God is limited in human form, he cannot write about infinity because in the human form, he doesn't know it. Why would he? Literally stop eternity to write an incomplete book that explains his existence to himself when he could figure it out himself because he already did since he's writing the book explaining what he is to himself. Could an infinite being that is infinite creation ever completely know itself?

If this is true why do you hop on the board and act like you have all the answers? God can make Jesus and have him walk on water and turn water into wine but can't make a book that's unambiguous? Can't write a book that is this direct?

- Nigga, there's life all over the universe.
- I built this shit, yes I did
- The sun was flinging the Earth too hard when I built that shit so I built the moon to stabilize er'thang. Without the moon there yall waters would end up flooding and all yall would die.
- Yeah, animals have souls and you will see them niggas when you die
- I made weed to cure sickness that happens when small animals that recycle organisms go into your body and start trying to recycle your cells.
- If you get cancer you need to get two rutabagas, steep them in water and cardamom, drink it for two weeks straight. the Cardamom and rutabagas for a protective layer of your cells and help them fight the cancer.
- Space ain't that large, Black holes are freeways to get you acrossed it quickly.

Czharcus said:
He doesn't have to write it because we already know. We are him, we just deny it.

My argument isn't that God can't do something because God can and is the only thing that can do everything that can be done. My argument is that projected in human forms, God is limited and that's likely for a reason. How could God express infinitely as one thing? If we all knew we were God, we'd all basically have the same experience. There would literally be nowhere to go, no one to meet and nothing to do. But if God limited itself and added a way of forgetting itself, infinite experience.

This is a cop out, we don't already know which is why people fight over it. If your God is true, he created a world of confusion and he is not intervening and you're creating excuses for it. People have been murdered, genocided, etc over their own definitions of God and your God has not stepped into to eliminate the confusion.

That's why I don't accept the Abrahamic god because the story doesn't make sense. God being the grand architect that created a simulation, and is letting it play out makes MUCH MORE sense. All this hog wash about him talking to people and intervening in stuff in the Old Testament but then disappearing when I have the ability to use my senses to detect this sensation? How convenient.

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

HailCzr85 said:
My mother's understanding of life was the truth is only valid if it doesn't make you look bad and if it does make you look bad then lie. So to answer your question, yes mom was a big ass liar. Half the time she couldn't function when she wasn't fuckin lyin'. So IF she lied it would be on brand for her.

This is true, but a legal document called a birth certificate stating my existence occurred, that is on record with the Government at the city, state and federal levels, proves this happened. So actually I CAN tell you for sure what my own birthday is. I can even tell you what TIME I was born.

Didn't learn much about Ancient Rome. Aside from the little bit I researched on my own. But I learned about Slavery in America and my teacher wasn't a witness and neither was the author of the Social Studies book we used in school, but I dare you to say we can't know FOR SURE slavery even happened. Because we absolutely CAN know for sure. They're historical occurrences that shaped a society and ultimately an entire nation.

1. You made me laugh but mama is no worse than anyone else!

2. I want you to tell me without depending on any other testimony, including the government. People are asking me how do I know that the things in the Bible are true. They ask, "Were you there?"
Furthermore, the government can get jacked too and be caught flat footed.
Illegal aliens are killing the Puerto Ricans and you won't hear about it in the main stream media.
You name is Lopez, mine is too!

Sessions: Undocumented identity thieves scammed Puerto Ricans to get gov't benefits

Attorney General Jeff Sessions said federal and state investigators analyzed Medicaid benefit payments and noticed suspicious activity.

www.nbcnews.com

3. I believe slavery in the US is a fact. But I wasn't there and I have never seen a slave nor talked to one. I think the same goes for you, too. You want to talk about slavery, but you cannot give me a first person experience to you own birth. What was your first meal. Who was in the room when you were born? The reason why I ask about your birth, is because people want to ask this about the Bible. You can see Golgotha today! You can see Sodom and you can see the walls of the Second Temple.
Why can't I float like you wanted to float on the government proof?

Deleted member 191 · 1/20/22

TheHarmattan said:
3. I believe slavery in the US is a fact. But I wasn't there and I have never seen a slave nor talked to one. I think the same goes for you, too. You want to talk about slavery, but you cannot give me a first person experience to you own birth. What was your first meal. Who was in the room when you were born? The reason why I ask about your birth, is because people want to ask this about the Bible. You can see Golgotha today! You can see Sodom and you can see the walls of the Second Temple.
Why can't I float like you wanted to float on the government proof

I didn't want to talk about slavery. I used it as a substitute because I didn't learn about Ancient Rome hard core in school which was the example you chose. I was only switching it to something relevant we could both relate to. Furthermore, people ask about it as it pertains to the Bible because 9 people read the same damn book and no one can agree one way or the other what the facts are. So it stands to reason if folks want to jump up and down and crown something the end all be all then they need to be able to defend it with something. I was able to defend your questions with evidence. You're responding with hypotheticals and theories. The proof I was born is because I'm alive discussing this with you. It's physical evidence. I'm not floating on second hand unprovable evidence, I'm right fucking here.
Now as someone said on the post earlier on, if your answer to the original post is "it's facts because faith", then say that but you can't conflate my birth versus some white supremacist mind control.

TheHarmattan said:
2. I want you to tell me without depending on any other testimony, including the government. People are asking me how do I know that the things in the Bible are true. They ask, "Were you there?"
Furthermore, the government can get jacked too and be caught flat footed.
Illegal aliens are killing the Puerto Ricans and you won't hear about it in the main stream media.
You name is Lopez, mine is too!

No one can depend on anything without a testimony of some sort.
In court: Your case is made stronger by the testimony of a witness or evidence.

Argument with your sibling: If you can prove to your mama that your sibling did something and you didn't with proof you're less likely to get the "I'll whup you both response"

Issue at school: If you can prove to the principal your complaint is legit either by evidence of what you're complaining about or the testimony of others then they might listen.

Issues within the community: Usually you need to get signatures (our substitute for testimony or witnesses in this case) before whatever issue you want addressed within your community gets any attention.

So you aren't going to be successful in your arguments without some semblance of testimony. Where this doesn't work for the "Bible" argument is you have multiple people reading these multiple "testimonies" in this book but no one can agree on anything one way or the other.

Meanwhile, in my examples, the judging parties, unless they're flat out corrupt, are going to be hard-pressed to act confused because whatever evidence or testimony of the facts they need are right there in their face.

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

HailCzr85 said:
I didn't want to talk about slavery. I used it as a substitute because I didn't learn about Ancient Rome hard core in school which was the example you chose. I was only switching it to something relevant we could both relate to. Furthermore, people ask about it as it pertains to the Bible because 9 people read the same damn book and no one can agree one way or the other what the facts are. So it stands to reason if folks want to jump up and down and crown something the end all be all then they need to be able to defend it with something. I was able to defend your questions with evidence. You're responding with hypotheticals and theories. The proof I was born is because I'm alive discussing this with you. It's physical evidence. I'm not floating on second hand unprovable evidence, I'm right fucking here.
Now as someone said on the post earlier on, if your answer to the original post is "it's facts because faith", then say that but you can't conflate my birth versus some white supremacist mind control.

No one can depend on anything without a testimony of some sort.
In court: Your case is made stronger by the testimony of a witness or evidence.

Argument with your sibling: If you can prove to your mama that your sibling did something and you didn't with proof you're less likely to get the "I'll whup you both response"

Issue at school: If you can prove to the principal your complaint is legit either by evidence of what you're complaining about or the testimony of others then they might listen.

Issues within the community: Usually you need to get signatures (our substitute for testimony or witnesses in this case) before whatever issue you want addressed within your community gets any attention.

So you aren't going to be successful in your arguments without some semblance of testimony. Where this doesn't work for the "Bible" argument is you have multiple people reading these multiple "testimonies" in this book but no one can agree on anything one way or the other.

Meanwhile, in my examples, the judging parties, unless they're flat out corrupt, are going to be hard-pressed to act confused because whatever evidence or testimony of the facts they need are right there in their face.

Well played, sis.
So let's drop slavery, Rome and the government testimony, and admit that we have sources(s) that we put our trust in for the truths that we hold.
So, if you personally don't like my truths or I don't like your truths, what could we possibly have to argue about, really?

Jay · 1/20/22

TheHarmattan said:
Well played, sis.
So let's drop slavery, Rome and the government testimony, and admit that we have sources(s) that we put our trust in for the truths that we hold.
So, if you personally don't like my truths or I don't like your truths, what could we possibly have to argue about, really?

I answered that alread..

Jay said:
No, but there are multiple sources, primary and secondary that confirm certain events. For instance:

Herodotus said the Kemetic people were Black
Stabo said the Kemetic people were Black
Diodorus said the Kemetic people were Black

When you see multiple different primary sources saying these people were Black it's easy to believe even though time machines didn't exist. All the Bible has to say it is true is the Bible clearly there's a conflict of interest there.

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

Jay said:
I answered that alread..

Sorry, there is a ton of words in this thread. Firstly, I'm not a complete idiot but my spell checker is out of line today so give me some grace in that area.😂

You said:

Herodotus said the Kemetic people were Black
Stabo said the Kemetic people were Black
Diodorus said the Kemetic people were Black

I have no problem with your sources or of their testimonies that they told. I believe them. The key to this discussion is actively choosing to believe some sources and not others.

Tacitus, leading historian talked about Jesus.
Plutarch, leading historian talked about Jesus.
Josephus, leading historian talked about Jesus.

So, do you accept their testimonies or not?

Lastly, The Bible has many authors but only One Inspiration.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:21

InsaneOptimist · 1/20/22

Jay said:
***This is not a Christianity bashing thread.***

The Question:

How can Christians claim their doctrine to be undisputed fact if they have been unable to reach a consensus as a religion?

Christianity is the pre-eminent Abrahamic Faith in the Western World and its adherents promote it as the undisputed word of the one and only creator of the universe. If we accept this at face value, why is there so much dissension within their ranks?

We'll address 4 of the 6 major denominations:

Catholicism
Thought of Protestants as heretics and murdered them.
Deemed the Pope to be the closest man to God. Believe Jesus is one man of two natures, human nature and divine nature.
Believe you pray through the Virgin Mary and the Saints.

Protestantism
Felt the Catholic Church was corrupt and that the Pope was was the anti-christ.
Don't believe in praying through Virgin Mary or the Saints.

Eastern Orthodoxy (Orthodox Catholic Church)
Second largest Christian Church and is in line with Catholicism except it does not recognize the Pope.

Oriental Orthodoxy
Typical only agree with the first 3 ecumenical councils.
This is the form of Christianity sprouting from Ethiopia and they reject the Council of Chalcedon.

Each of these major denominations disagree with one another. In addition, each of these have subdivisions within each as they disagree with one another. You have Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian denominations, Trinitarian and Non-Trinitarian, and etc. Christianity doesn't even have its story straight so how can you proselytize a truth that is not unified?

We can easily look at the Ecumenical Councils to see how the story was shaped by the will of man. Here are two pivotal ecumenical councils

First Council of Nicaea (Emperor Constantine I)
Established that Jesus Christ was God with the Father. Single Nature.
This was to combat Arius and his teachings that Jesus merely a created. Arius was exiled after.

Council of Chalcedon (Emperor Marcian)
Established that Jesus Christ was one man of two natures. Two Natures.
This caused the Oriental Orthodoxy split.

Everyone that disagreed with the canon was exiled or killed so how can you be sure this was the truth? The Emperors convoked these for political reasons. Is it not concerning that Romans got together to determine what was and was not apart of the religion you follow? Wouldn't these councils be man changing God's word? If the Romans couldn't agree and no one else can agree then how effective is it?

If a remote is the color red, it is a fact. I cannot interpret it as any color other than red and be factual. So if the Bible is fact why do all these churches disagree on it? Not only do Protestants disagree with Catholics, they even disagree with each other which is why you have Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Pentacostals, Adventists, etc.

If you're Black American and read the King James Bible you're reading a book that int through the following?

African Religion > Greek Interpretations > Adopted by Constantine in Rome/Changed through the ecumenical council > Changed by Germans Protestant Reformation (Removed 7 Books) > King James Bible (Not translated based on original texts).

So please answer in real world English not parables, if you can't even agree internally, why do you think it's fact?

If faith is the reason please just say so.

I think that with the exception of the Ethiopians it is unified & underpinned by a Collective Consciousness that intuitively embraces WS. And at the end of the day rather than adhere to the dictates, mannerisms, practices of the Orthodox Christians of Ethiopia, that purportedly has the Oldest Bible on the planet, within the collective psyche they agree to disagree solely based on Race, Color, etc.

Kanu · 1/20/22

Uncle Geoff/P2B1 said:
If you don't at LEAST have a PASSPORT with EGYPT stamped in it... If your only point of reference is the KJV or ANY OFFSHOOT... YOU ARE UNQUALIFIED TO SPEAK INTELLIGENTLY ABOUT YOUR GODS.

What is going to change inside me if i put my feet in egypt?

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

Kanu said:
What is going to change inside me if i put my feet in egypt?

I've been to Egypt twice in my life and I'm still waiting for the answer

Jay · 1/20/22

TheHarmattan said:
Tacitus, leading historian talked about Jesus.
Plutarch, leading historian talked about Jesus.
Josephus, leading historian talked about Jesus.

Yes, why not? If they all said they saw him I can get with that. Were they all alive during Jesus' time or are these people looking in retrospect? Cuz the 3 people I posted were actually in Egypt and said essentially "these some niggas and they smart AF"

Jay · 1/20/22

Kanu said:
What is going to change inside me if i put my feet in egypt?

A lot of the stuff you see White people claim as their own is right there in stone showing who originated it. I had that awakening as a Master Mason, I couldn't even go to lodge anymore after I saw now they basically just took Ancient Egyptian culture. From the term Mason, the step, the apron, etc straight rip off. If you go to Egypt you'll be in the lands of the Empire of where the Bible takes place. You basically asking "What would I learn about the colosseum if I went to Rome today"...nigga you get to look at one of the freaking COLOSSEUMS!

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

Jay said:
Yes, why not? If they all said they saw him I can get with that. Were they all alive during Jesus' time or are these people looking in retrospect? Cuz the 3 people I posted were actually in Egypt and said essentially "these some niggas and they smart AF"

I believe Joe was alive an seen him but I'm not sure. The sighting is neither an imposition nor nullification of the truth as stated by my birthing argument. You were there but you cannot tell me anything about it. Time? People present? Doctor's hair color? Anything?
So you rely. Is it possible for the three men to lie? If it is possible for them to lie, then is it not a vector to investigate?

Kanu · 1/20/22

Jay said:
A lot of the stuff you see White people claim as their own is right there in stone showing who originated it. I had that awakening as a Master Mason, I couldn't even go to lodge anymore after I saw now they basically just took Ancient Egyptian culture. From the term Mason, the step, the apron, etc straight rip off. If you go to Egypt you'll be in the lands of the Empire of where the Bible takes place. You basically asking "What would I learn about the colosseum if I went to Rome today"...nigga you get to look at one of the freaking COLOSSEUMS!

Unless you know people there and they show you some secret rooms and shyt i don't see how that would be much different than seeing pics on the internet tbh. Or let's say you're doing some kind of ritual that require your presence at certain location, then definitely ill agree with you.

Jay · 1/20/22

Kanu said:
Unless you know people there and they show you some secret rooms and shyt i don't see how that would be much different than seeing pics on the internet tbh. Or let's say you're doing some kind of ritual that require your presence at certain location, then definitely ill agree with you.

You don’t have to agree with me. The pictures are drawn on the walls, the statues are there. You get to see how vast it is, see an African civilization in its full light.

Kanu · 1/20/22

Jay said:
You don’t have to agree with me. The pictures are drawn on the walls, the statues are there. You get to see how vast it is, see an African civilization in its full light.

Let me ask you this, do you believe African Americans are descendants of ancient egyptians?

Jay · 1/20/22

Kanu said:
Let me ask you this, do you believe African Americans are descendants of ancient egyptians?

America gives props and honor to Greece for founding democracy and they are not Greek but they see unity as Europeans.
America gives props to Rome and uses Latin in much of its symbolism but Americans are descendants of Anglos who attacked Rome but they find unity because they are European.

So don’t come at me with some sucker ass “y’all have nothing to do with Egypt” nonsense. Medu Neter words are found in Wolof and many other West African languages, Cheikh Anta Diop wrote about it. The Dogon and many other Central and West tribes said they relocated from KMT after invasions. You may see life through a white lens but KMT was a force that influence Europe AND Africa and the African story tells us this.

Don’t pretend like you weren’t going there either both you and I know you were going to go there.

TAILIANNA · 1/20/22

The god debate always boils down to a god of the gaps argument. We dont know what made lightning insert thor. We dont know what made water insert posidden the only question left science hasn't answered in this debate yet is what made the first cell. I believe it was a combination of elements because this idea that humans were gods special creation is redicoulous. We know full well life started as single cell organisms.

Kanu · 1/20/22

Jay said:
America gives props and honor to Greece for founding democracy and they are not Greek but they see unity as Europeans.

America gives props to Rome and uses Latin in much of its symbolism but Americans are descendants of Anglos who attacked Rome but they find unity because they are European.

So don’t come at me with some sucker ass “y’all have nothing to do with Egypt” nonsense. Medu Neter words are found in Wolof and many other West African languages, Cheikh Anta Diop wrote about it. The Dogon and many other Central and West tribes said they relocated from KMT after invasions. You may see life through a white lens but KMT was a force that influence Europe AND Africa and the African story tells us this.

Don’t pretend like you weren’t going there either both you and I know you were going to go there.

I just wanted to see where you stand on that issue.

Deleted member 191 · 1/20/22

TheHarmattan said:
Well played, sis.
So let's drop slavery, Rome and the government testimony, and admit that we have sources(s) that we put our trust in for the truths that we hold.
So, if you personally don't like my truths or I don't like your truths, what could we possibly have to argue about, really?

That's the argument RIGHT THERE! it's not about MY TRUTH or YOUR TRUTH. It's about THE truth. The Bible is talked about in the terms of it being THE TRUTH. So if that's the case, how come 8 people reading it don't come away with the same truth? The argument is in the reliability and authenticity. If I bought us Gold Watches and said "hey bro I got us some Gold Watches this shit is raw AF ain't it. We out here ballin'!!" Now I don't mine for, nor cultivate gold in any manner, and you know I don't know jack shit about real gold. Are you going to take my word that it's real because "Czr Hath Spoken. All Hail Czr!!!"? Or are you going to take it to a jeweler because you need a reliable source that can give you the authenticity you're looking for?

What we need to admit is when it comes to religion people are inconsistent with WHEN and HOW they place trust in certain sources. Because in the gold watch example I bet you, you'd want hard proof over simply having faith in my word.

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

Over 500 saw the Risen Christ. We are just going to rely on people that have seen the Risen Christ. I don't know their names but I'm sure their testimonies have reached my ears😎👌

3 For what I received(A) I passed on to you(B) as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins(C) according to the Scriptures,(D) 4 that he was buried,(E) that he was raised(F) on the third day(G) according to the Scriptures,(H) 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b](I) and then to the Twelve.(J) 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.(K) 7 Then he appeared to James,(L) then to all the apostles,

1 Corinthians 15:3-7 NIV - For what I received I passed on to you - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

HailCzr85 said:
That's the argument RIGHT THERE! it's not about MY TRUTH or YOUR TRUTH. It's about THE truth. The Bible is talked about in the terms of it being THE TRUTH. So if that's the case, how come 8 people reading it don't come away with the same truth? The argument is in the reliability and authenticity. If I bought us Gold Watches and said "hey bro I got us some Gold Watches this shit is raw AF ain't it. We out here ballin'!!" Now I don't mine for, nor cultivate gold in any manner, and you know I don't know jack shit about real gold. Are you going to take my word that it's real because "Czr Hath Spoken. All Hail Czr!!!"? Or are you going to take it to a jeweler because you need a reliable source that can give you the authenticity you're looking for?

What we need to admit is when it comes to religion people are inconsistent with WHEN and HOW they place trust in certain sources. Because in the gold watch example I bet you, you'd want hard proof over simply having faith in my word.

I tell you the truth, in that scenario, I'd treat it as a gift and thank you for whatever you've given me. That's MY truth.

But to answer your overall point, in two points.
1. The Bible isn't War and Peace. You can't read it like any other book and expect to understand it. You have to be living to understand the things of the living. Don't take that as a literal but take it as a literal. The Bible will continue to elude you because as Paul said, you're in an impossible position.

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6

2. Focusing on people instead of The Bible will always throw you off. That's the easiest problem to solve. (When debating on holy days in the early church, Paul said:)

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Romans 14:5

Deleted member 191 · 1/20/22

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6

So if I give the attention seeking god the attention he so desperately craves, he'll reward me....1. that makes Jay's and Tailianna's earlier point that this sounds like some punk bitch Human shit. Not the behavior of a supposed powerful deity. And 2. off topic but not really, there was a fictional character who did something similar but in the reverse. He didn't reward people who sought him out and believed he existed, he murdered them instead. His name was Freddy Krueger. (R.I.P Wes Craven)

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Romans 14:5

So you're saying ultimately we're both right? That Faith matters but so does logic. Ok. I mean honestly, I can get with that. My faith is triggered by my logic though so, my logic will come first before I have faith in something.

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

HailCzr85 said:
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6

So if I give the attention seeking god the attention he so desperately craves, he'll reward me....1. that makes Jay's and Tailianna's earlier point that this sounds like some punk bitch Human shit. Not the behavior of a supposed powerful deity. And 2. off topic but not really, there was a fictional character who did something similar but in the reverse. He didn't reward people who sought him out and believed he existed, he murdered them instead. His name was Freddy Krueger. (R.I.P Wes Craven)

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Romans 14:5

So you're saying ultimately we're both right? That Faith matters but so does logic. Ok. I mean honestly, I can get with that. My faith is triggered by my logic though so, my logic will come first before I have faith in something.

No, you can choose to ignore Him your whole life. The choice is truly yours in that regard.

Parting words: be very careful of your logic. There are beings that are way smarter than you, only to have their logic shattered by a Rock.

View: https://youtu.be/mZZQ60USSyQ

Deleted member 191 · 1/20/22

TheHarmattan said:
No, you can choose to ignore Him your whole life. The choice is truly yours in that regard.

Parting words: be very careful of your logic. There are beings that are way smarter than you, only to have their logic shattered by a Rock.

View: https://youtu.be/mZZQ60USSyQ

Parting words: Be careful with your faith. There are some very misguided people who have been praying for their open enemies to change and then play confused when nothing actually changes.

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

HailCzr85 said:
Parting words: Be careful with your faith. There are some very misguided people who have been praying for their open enemies to change and then play confused when nothing actually changes.

I want what The King Wants:
That nobody perish but for all to come to repentance.

Deleted member 191 · 1/20/22

TheHarmattan said:
I want what The King Wants:
That nobody perish but for all to come to repentance.

Do you.

TheHarmattan · 1/20/22

HailCzr85 said:
Do you.

I said what I meant 😎👌

Czharcus · 1/20/22

Jay said:
No one has to do something exactly as you propose.

I'm just saying if they want someone to experience God the way they have, all of that, and then some, would have to be exact. It's probably actually an infinite number of variables that would have to be precisely duplicated. God is an experience and experiences cannot be duplicated or mass manufactured. This is why the ambiguity is unavoidable.

Jay said:
I get your point but you're trying to look at my explanation through your view of the world and it is confusing you. Read what I write and interpret the words as is, don't try to translate them to your world view. 6ZEROS is a bunch of code running on a computer in a data center and your computer asks that Server to give you 6ZEROS content via your internet connection. The server sends the code to you and it is rendered in your internet browser.

I'm not confused. I believe maybe it appears I am confused or translating because I switch between speaking dually and non-dually (as in God is not something outside of us) habitually because i'm so used to it. I understand whether I'm speaking of God as myself or something outside of myself, I'm still talking about the same being. If that's not it, I don't know.

Jay said:
Your God is sending us this:

"Posit onto thee logos of ZEROS in succession for it is most pleasing when imposed on reds of bright"

When it should be sending us this:

img src="6zeros.png"

Why should it be something other than what it is? Why should it be that way instead of this way? Who says?

Jay said:
...and then wonder why everything is messed up.

But that's why I don't believe in the Christian God because it doesn't make sense. It supposedly wrote a book full of nothing but:

"Posit onto thee logos of ZEROS in succession for it is most pleasing when imposed on reds of bright"

...and it's so confusing that even the people that believe it's the truth can't even agree on its meaning. THat's a huge fail.

You hit on a good point: even if God was direct, why do you think you would understand it? You are limited but He is not. Our language is even more limited than you are. I don't think it would be as much about him being too limited to speak directly as much as us being too limited to understand this infinite being.

Jay said:
This is a cop out, we don't already know which is why people fight over it. If your God is true, he created a world of confusion and he is not intervening and you're creating excuses for it. People have been murdered, genocided, etc over their own definitions of God and your God has not stepped into to eliminate the confusion.

We may not know consciously but if we inquire within, we know. "He" doesn't need to intervene because nothing's happening. We are God, we can't die. We are not the body, not the memories, not the persona. We know we aren't because all those things change or are changeable while that which perceives those things does not change and cannot be modified.

Jay said:
That's why I don't accept the Abrahamic god because the story doesn't make sense. God being the grand architect that created a simulation, and is letting it play out makes MUCH MORE sense. All this hog wash about him talking to people and intervening in stuff in the Old Testament but then disappearing when I have the ability to use my senses to detect this sensation? How convenient.

I literally had to look up "Abrahamic God". I've heard it before but I never really known what it meant.

I am not familiar with most of the stories of the Bible but I am familiar with the God it speaks of because it's the only God any religion anywhere is ever speaking about. Everyone experiences God differently. Their stories about him are merely pointers to an aspect of him, of you (not to discount experiences of the so-called "supernatural").

They know "their" God is the truth because they experience Him. There is a lot of ego mixed in as we easily misinterpret those experiences. You can take the stories with a grain of salt but the God is real because you are.

I'd recommend looking into Spiral Dynamics. Religion in general is stage blue I believe and you seem to be looking at it from a stage orange prospective, which explains why it makes absolutely no sense to you. But as we advance up the stages, things start to make more sense.

Kzzl · 1/29/22

Jay said:
***This is not a Christianity bashing thread.***

The Question:

How can Christians claim their doctrine to be undisputed fact if they have been unable to reach a consensus as a religion?

A religious group claiming their doctrine is undisputed fact sounds like divine arrogance on their part.
If your group has a doctrine and someone within it wants to branch off, the doctrine should not change if based on facts.
If it does that means that something went wrong and it brings the validity of the doctrines into question.
Who would humble themselves and admit they were wrong?
Or the conundrum of one branch faith against another branch of faith rooted from the same faith.
With religion you also have influence, land, and money added into the equation.
Establishing a consensus seems very complicated at this point.

Troy · 1/29/22

Kzzl said:
A religious group claiming their doctrine is undisputed fact sounds like divine arrogance on their part.
If your group has a doctrine and someone within it wants to branch off, the doctrine should not change if based on facts.
If it does that means that something went wrong and it brings the validity of the doctrines into question.
Who would humble themselves and admit they were wrong?
Or the conundrum of one branch faith against another branch of faith rooted from the same faith.
With religion you also have influence, land, and money added into the equation.
Establishing a consensus seems very complicated at this point.

Who are you as a mortal to say that it is divine arrogance? Why do you think that you are able to understand the word of God or the mind of God? He placed the confusion here to test you will and your desire to sit next to him on the throne. That is part of test but it seems as if everyone wants an easy button.

Kzzl · 1/29/22

Troy said:
Who are you as a mortal to say that it is divine arrogance? Why do you think that you are able to understand the word of God or the mind of God? He placed the confusion here to test you will and your desire to sit next to him on the throne. That is part of test but it seems as if everyone wants an easy button.

I'm a mortal with thousands of other religious doctrine to pick from.
A group claiming their doctrine as undisputed fact is arrogance when other groups have equal doctrines as well.

Tbaby · 2/5/22

First and foremost, we must understand "Who We Are", White Christianity was used as a BRAINWASHING to make us subservient to our master. All Native Black American are from the twelve tribes of Israel. We are from the Kingdom of Judah. The Bible is our hidden history. The Bible was framed to look like another group of people, when in fact it is talking about us. I challenge us to listen to Stephen Darby on youtube "Who We Are", We Have Been Jacked", and many more. Also, do you own investigation!!!
Peace TBaby

Jay · 2/5/22

Tbaby said:
First and foremost, we must understand "Who We Are", White Christianity was used as a BRAINWASHING to make us subservient to our master. All Native Black American are from the twelve tribes of Israel. We are from the Kingdom of Judah. The Bible is our hidden history. The Bible was framed to look like another group of people, when in fact it is talking about us. I challenge us to listen to Stephen Darby on youtube "Who We Are", We Have Been Jacked", and many more. Also, do you own investigation!!!
Peace TBaby

Your post is a bit off topic but it proves the point of the original post. You read the bible and interpret it as Black people’s hidden history White people read it and interpret as “God gave us dominion over the Earth”. Something is clearly wrong with this book if so many interpretations can come from it.

The Hebrew Israelite movement in a lot of ways is simply another denomination of Christianity. You read the same book and praise the same people but you disagree on who the people in the stories actually are. It’s basically like you and other Christians all believe in Star Wars and white people say Luke was white and you say he’s Black but you all accept that Star Wars is real.

If one does not accept Star Wars as canon then both claims sound equally silly and irrelevant.

The Cookout

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